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  • SharkyForums.Com - Print: Mac to PC?

    Mac to PC?
    By gillyweed January 30, 2001, 10:49 AM

    Simon's article on the Mac has a few good points, but Apple is in catchup mode nowadays with the PC in every area with the exception of case design and human interface. Apple's days of grand innovation are numberd due to brain drain and other factors. For the most part Apple ships with older cheaper hardware in an effort to keep the prices down, and because their engineering isn't able to implement things fast enough. If you have the where with all you can buy and build a PC with off the shelf PC components, such as SDRAM, hard drives, CDRW devices, processors, logic boards, sound cards, and so on, that are at least a year or two ahead of Apple with regard to performance.

    Apple has a very loyal following that doesn't pay much attention to what's really going on technologically IMHO. They are more concerned with the Mac mystic and asthetics. For example, Mac loyalists think that iTunes and MP3 ripping is something that PC owners would die for. Unfortunately, they don't know PC users have been doing it for years already, which is why they continue to buy Macs.

    I'd buy a Mac (and some love beads) myself, if I couldn't build 4 higher performance PCs for the price of one Mac.

    Boring

    Ba Bye.

    By Judge_Fire January 30, 2001, 01:25 PM

    Apple has a few things going on for consumers, that are interesting to note, in the spirit of the article.

    Firstly, many people seem to confuse the look or 'skin' of the OS with the term 'interface'. No. As in all design, the equation should be function+form.

    Apple has always had a very strict set of guidelines of how things should work and interestingly enough, applications seem to comply - keyboard shortcuts don't differ dramatically, there is no command-line (except OS X), every application is scriptable from the OS level. Things not only look, but feel the 'same'.

    For some people this is good, for some it's not. (Good for newbies, bad for sloppy coders )

    Windows could be a lot better in terms of human-computer interaction. And this doesn't mean prettier, it means it should stay out of the way more.

    Secondly, Apple is in charge of the whole OS/hardware/OEM- routine, resulting in considerably less driver etc. conflicts, thus making it a more predictable environment for third party hardware. Recently, nvidia praised being able to work with one partner, instead of three; the OS/processor/OEM.

    For those of us technically inclined, we can tolerate a few software installs breaking something, but as for newbies, the tightly controlled SW/HW- environment is safer.

    Judge_Fire

    By Iggy January 30, 2001, 02:02 PM

    How can anyone say that Apple is playing catch up? The processors they use are faster than any of the Intel or AMD procs. They have included GB ethernet. They have included DVD-RW drives and the software to go with them (not to mention sped up the write time for DVD's).

    I repair PC and servers for a living so I'm not an rookie at these things.

    I own a 300 MHz Intel machine and a 300MHz G3. The G3 is considerably faster then the Intel and much more reliable.

    So I paid more for the G3. I got much more for my money than I did the PC. The price wasn't that much more anyway.

    Just an opinion. :-)

    Iggy

    By gillyweed January 30, 2001, 03:15 PM

    quote:Originally posted by Iggy:
    How can anyone say that Apple is playing catch up? The processors they use are faster than any of the Intel or AMD procs. They have included GB ethernet. They have included DVD-RW drives and the software to go with them (not to mention sped up the write time for DVD's).

    I guess the GB ethernet is a front runner, but where are you going to use it to find out how cool it is? Mac to Mac? The processor MHz thing is interesting, but I prefer to compare what you can buy today on both platforms. Not a 3 year old 300MHz Intel and a 1 year old 300MHz G3. You might someday be able to buy a 733MHz G4 Mac for say around $4K that might possibly be faster than a $1K 1.3GHz Athlon or PIII system. However the performance numbers could be very close and the only time the Mac would just blow away the PC is when Mr Jobs is running a demo. Ouch!

    quote:I repair PC and servers for a living so I'm not an rookie at these things.

    I own a 300 MHz Intel machine and a 300MHz G3. The G3 is considerably faster then the Intel and much more reliable.

    I don't punch a clock anymore. I did my time in the electronic frontier so to speak. I own both platforms myself and uptime reliability of the Mac is a myth. They are just as big a pain to keep tuned up as a PC if you upgrade or install an ugly app or driver. Just a different set of rules and methods for making corrections.

    quote:So I paid more for the G3. I got much more for my money than I did the PC. The price wasn't that much more anyway.

    Did Apple bundle any application software outside of a browser and email, a monitor perhaps, more what? The only thing one gets more of with a Mac is more cool and more space in their bank account. At the OEM system package level, I think Apple shorts the consumer. However, they are pretty enclosures.

    quote:Just an opinion. :-)

    Iggy

    I like the Mac, don't get me wrong. They just aren't as uptime reliable as the myth would have everyone believe, or worth the price in the highend arena. If Apple would trim off some of those overpaid NeXt middle managers and execs running around at the Apple campus, maybe they could price the Mac more competitively. Combine a cheap 733MHz G4 Mac with OSX and you might just have something unbeatable. Might being the key word.

    Now I'm boring myself. That's bad isn't it? :-)


    By quirex January 30, 2001, 03:19 PM

    I think you're missing the point about iTunes. Mac users have been able to rip MP3s forever. iTunes is great because it's so integrated. I can rip, burn, and get stuff onto/off of my mp3 player without any work. It's all drag and drop. I can listen to one song on a CD while I'm ripping 5 others. I can burn a CD without it taking over my system. It's free and the makers don't try to spam me or upmarket me to a paid version.

    I think that Apple's media strategy is going to work because it views the computer as the conduit for all the different media types instead of the main player.

    $0.02

    By Duo January 30, 2001, 04:29 PM

    The new Tower macs have PC-133 memory, agp 4, 5 pci slots and a cdrw; the high end version comes with the super drive. I really don't see any old hardware.

    Also 1.2ghz T-bird can't be compared to a 733mhz G4+. Why? They are very different CPU's. Only the dumbest of people would buy a 1.2ghz PC over a 733mhz Mac, because of the difference in mhz speeds.

    One more thing the imac, ibook, and cube will be getting an upgrade in the Tyoko Mac Expo. Coming in Feb.

    Duo

    By JonSimon January 30, 2001, 04:40 PM

    Motorola is playing clock speed catchup, but the G4 performance is still quite good. The one performance area I see Apple really falling behind in is 3D gaming. Otherwise, for audio, video, 2D, general tasks, etc., Apple hardware does just peachy, and in some cases kicks PC butt.
    -Jon

    By James January 30, 2001, 05:20 PM

    Link to the Article.

    I think it was a good idea to remind everyone where all of the cool PC concepts have come from. Sure Mac's have their problems, but Apple as a company is an innovator. IEEE1394 (In PC terms), aka Apple's Firewire interface. I think it is admirable (if foolish business-wise) of Apple to not try and control the technology they create. Instead, they offer it to the computing industry as a whole and see what happens. Very inline with their warm fuzzy image.

    Anyway, thanks to Jon Simon for the article. Sometimes we PC people get all high and mighty and forget where our roots truly are.

    By JabberJaw January 30, 2001, 05:39 PM

    I agree that Apple is a leader in the development of personal computing devices as solution appliances. There is a definite need for clean and clear solutions of the types illustrated by Apple's DV/DVD integration, the proto-PDA Newton, integrated wireless networking, and passive cooling examples.

    While this "appliance" approach is the antithesis of the hobbyist computer, whose owner is willing to tackle all the types of issues that we see addressed throughout the various help forums here, I also appreciate the price and performance advantages of being able to cobble together a PC system from the components of competing vendors, particularly when coupled with the availability of a myriad of PC software tools and applications.

    By JonSimon January 30, 2001, 07:13 PM

    I think Macs still make good hobbyist machines. I've upgraded processors, installed hard drives and video cards, and overclocked Macs before. You just have to buy everything put together to start. Granted, things are more limited on the Mac, but the Mac is not nearly as closed-box as a Tivo, and people hack Tivo left and right.
    -Jon

    quote:Originally posted by JabberJaw:
    I agree that Apple is a leader in the development of personal computing devices as solution appliances. There is a definite need for clean and clear solutions of the types illustrated by Apple's DV/DVD integration, the proto-PDA Newton, integrated wireless networking, and passive cooling examples.

    While this "appliance" approach is the antithesis of the hobbyist computer, whose owner is willing to tackle all the types of issues that we see addressed throughout the various help forums here, I also appreciate the price and performance advantages of being able to cobble together a PC system from the components of competing vendors, particularly when coupled with the availability of a myriad of PC software tools and applications.

    By Syburwulf January 30, 2001, 08:09 PM

    Hey, great article... (oops think I misspelled that)... I think its great that this site is starting to review 'both" sides.

    By trumptman January 30, 2001, 08:33 PM

    The reason people buy Mac's is simple. I know because I own one along with my PC.

    First there are times where the industry hasn't settled into a standard yet and you still need to get some work done. Since Apple sets its own standards, they don't have these problems or the associated wait. I personally don't have a year to 18 months to wait while things get sorted out on the PC side.

    A prime example of this is digital video. I was able to run Adobe Premiere 5.1, Final Cut Pro, and iMovie on my Mac.

    On my PC, well it just didn't work.... Premiere wasn't compatible with the Microsoft drivers for 1394. I tried Edit DV, it worked pretty well, but occasionally Microsoft Media Player tries to take over the extensions for Quicktime. (which Edit DV requires) The result was that I couldn't edit until I started making registry changes. Ulead required me to learn 6 apps to do the work of one....

    Need I go on????

    This will sort itself out soon, and then the PC will be a good contender in DV. Win 2000 is VERY reliable for me and also enjoyable use for the most part. However I have been using DV for 12 months and it will probably be another 6 before things are really working well on the PC.

    In computer time..that is a LOOOONG time.

    Another example will be DVD authoring. Sure it will be possible on the PC, and about 18 months from now, everything will be sorted out, the niche guys will be eliminated, the drivers will be debugged, etc... and the PC will likely offer the better value as well. However 18 months is a long time again.

    In the meantime let us remember that not all users care about running Quake 3 benchmarks all day long. (Nor any other benchmark that happens to be your favorite) Mac's have the Radeon, GF2/MX. They will run any and all games and adequate speeds. (Say 80-100 fps in Q3) In the meantime Who wants to be a Millionaire, and the Sims, are still sitting on the top of the sales charts. (Neither ever require 3d)

    In Education,Music, Video, and Print, Mac has all the tools they need and they are optimized in a manner that gives them no loss compared to PC's. Mac's have enough games to tide over all buy the most hardcore players. Mac's have plenty of mainstream productivity apps and niche apps as well.

    I think this still makes the Mac a sound choice for plenty of people. Myself included...


    By astromac January 30, 2001, 08:52 PM

    First off, thank you sharkyextreme. It's nice to see that there are some Wintel enthusiasts that recognize that the computing world owes much to Apple.

    But in response to gillyweed's post, it is my opinion that he, in fact, has it backwards. It is a very large segment of Windows users that are in the dark technologically. Remember, 90% of the computing world consists of Wintel users, and most are not technically saavvy. Take my father for instance, when Windows 95 came out he couldn't stop talking about how innovative and brilliant it was. What he didn't know was that Apple had most of Windows 95's functionality long before it was ever released. I'm not even sure my Dad knows there exists an Apple computer that Microsoft ripped-off its wonderful Windows 95 look-and-feel from.

    In fact, with the advent of Mac OS X, I think Mac users know what's going on technologically more than ever. We know that our new OS has preemptive multitasking, protected memory, multithreading, symmetric multiprocessing, is built upon the Mach microkernel underneath BSD 4.4 Unix with a PDF-based display layer and will include full Java 2 support. We know that the major adjantage with the G4 CPU is the inclusion of 128-bit vector processors on chip. Yes, I and many Mac users understand fully what all of that means. If you follow the Mac world even slightly, it's all we've been talking about.

    I'm not sure what technology gillyweed thinks Macs are catching up to. They use most of the same standard hardware that PC's have and they perform equally as well when placed inside a Mac. I'd be interested to see some kind of test done that shows that PC133 RAM runs slower when installed on a Mac as opposed to when it's installed on a PC or that an off the shelf IDE hard drive somehow is less efficient when installed on a Mac. Maybe I'm missing gillyweed's point. I think the point of the article is that Apple has been a trendsetter in the computing world. Take the rewriteable CD/DVD drive that comes with the new high-end Mac. Watch as it becomes a Mac standard now and then a year or two later a common item on PC's.

    By the way, most Mac users do realize that MP3 listening and encoding has been going on for years on BOTH platforms. These aren't exactly the first Mac MP3 programs to come out for the Mac you know.

    By WhiteRabbit January 30, 2001, 09:27 PM

    "Apple has a very loyal following that doesn't pay much attention to what's really going on technologically IMHO. They are more concerned with the Mac mystic and asthetics. For example, Mac loyalists think that iTunes and MP3 ripping is something that PC owners would die for. Unfortunately, they don't know PC users have been doing it for years already, which is why they continue to buy Macs."

    Gillyweed you are absolutely correct with your quoted above statement. I was a Mac faithful for over 12yrs, and I believed that you could only have DVD playback (amongst many other features) on a Mac and not on a PC!!! It took complete frustration with Apple, and their overpricing strategies on sub par performance to make me switch to what many Maccies refer to as the "Dark Side". Unfortunately for them, they couldn't be further from the truth. I am enjoying the price/performance of my PC's and have come to like the Windows GUI very much. In fact, after using Windows for the past 3 months, I feel it is easier than the Mac interface for most things.

    By nerf January 30, 2001, 09:54 PM

    what a load of crap, apple to pc!
    wake up Jonnny Boy, where have you been! you had better look at the patents held by Xerox before you go off given credit where it is not due. Macs are macs, pcs are pcs. its your $ do with it what you want. i do find it odd that mac users are all ways a little defensive. i do have one question. if the mac is so superior, why are they going broke? if it was worth the $ say 20K for a chevy and 60k for a benz. people with the $ would see the value. i guess they dont.
    i also find it suspect that there are so many first time posts on one thread. hmmm
    nerf

    By Work Smarter January 30, 2001, 10:41 PM

    "Jonnny Boy, where have you been! you had better look at the patents held by Xerox before you go off given credit where it is not due."

    Ignorance is not always bliss. Here is a link with some information from Apple employee number 31 (Jef Raskin). Read and learn.

    <http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_raskin.html>

    Pertinent quote:
    "Horn is correct that click-and-drag methods were invented at Apple and not at PARC (or elsewhere, as far as I know). I created this method for moving objects and making selections after finding the Xerox click-move-click method prone to error. Bill Atkinson extended the paradigm to pull-down menus. This all happened relatively early in the history of the Mac."

    By fgzd January 31, 2001, 12:05 AM

    First off I would like to congradulate all you for actualy keeping a Mac vs PC debate level headed and so far flame/troll free. Except for a few posts . Well here is my view. I am currently a PC user and have been for about 6 years. But as soon as I save up the money (it will take a while) I plan on getting a Mac. Now im not going to get dragged into a faster cheaper debate thing. The reason that im about to switch is because frankly I am tired of a computer now only standing for speed and not user freindliness. It seems all anyone cares about now is: I get 5 more fps in Quake 3 Arena than you do so ha! And the constant upgrades and advancements while good for technology as a whole give me a damn headache. And all the while we are still using Windows. Which is still crap and for the future all I can see is crap. Im tired of it. I want a computer more intersted in enhancing my life and the world around me. As well as making my computing experiance more enjoyable than being able to trounce my freinds by 2 fps in Quake.
    Thats just my view.

    ya ya spelling bad ugh.

    By bmeteor January 31, 2001, 12:41 AM

    I gotta say this is a good article. Really fair to Apple and it's achievements.

    While Mac's are not for everybody, they still have a strong position in the computer industry. Controlling both the hardware and software has it's advantages, in that it really produces innovations, that can be passed onto PC's. Recently, Jobs was echoed by Gates in the digital hub, showing Apple's leadership. As much as the PC industry doesn't like to admit it, Apple is here to stay, and will still continue to lead.

    By nerf January 31, 2001, 01:34 AM

    Cant take it when your wrong can you! go here and read for yourself O ignoramis. i also delight that your source was from a mac site. does your stupidity have no bounds! show me a patent for GUI smart guy not a drag down menu!www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/campus/1880/Articles/Xerox/essay.html
    Quote from
    "Xerox started developing a GUI based system in 1972. This system, known as the Alto, was only a prototype. The company did see the potential of the Alto, and for almost a decade they developed the Xerox Star. An enormous amount of work [MJ94] went into the Star. They performed user testing at a level that is still unprecedented today. Details such as button and menu names, icon recognition, text and graphic selection methods, and even the number of buttons there should be on a mouse were tested. If testing showed that users didn't like something, it would be changed."

    Xerox started work on the GUI in 1972, Jobs was still picking his nose in 72' and by the way, that included the "mouse" the menu the whole deal. Mac can implement new devices quicker than the PC market. but they did not innovate the cdrom, dvd or any other device. if they did they would lock it up with patents. the term used by the author innovate is inaccurate. they implement. everyone grips about MS, Mac is no better. they just seized upon the opportunity and took a product to market first. MS came along and took the "Look and Feel", got sued and won. everyone laughed when MS introduced Windows 1.0. all the Gurus said this was the end of MS. guess who got the last laugh. im not saying that macs are not innovative, they are. but so was the Amiga and the Atari. there are gone, "Next" is gone and MS bailed out Apple, or they would be gone. its all about business nothing more. but for some reason mac users cant handle the truth about the product. please answer me this:
    what in a mac costs twice as much as a PC?
    must be the colored plastic, because the rest of the stuff is off the rack.
    nerf

    By nerf January 31, 2001, 02:24 AM

    in response to the gentle man who wrote about control. Apple controls nothing! how do they control a company like MS who writes software for their machine. they dont! they control the operating code thats it! anyone can write a program for a Mac. any one can make a HDD for a mac or a monitor, they control specs thats it. they source out parts just like Dell and Gateway. The primary advantage a Mac has is homogenity, but they are losing that also as the apps get a bigger base the new OS will have to make provisions, read compromise, read proformance loss. if magically everyone tossed windows 3.x based apps and all moved to win2k and the HW to support it, think of the tremendous amount of stream lining the PC industry could do. but thats why there is an open standard. its not the most efficient but it suits the most needs. Apple is not on terra firma, more like a loyalty based franchise. Apple is doomed because it is publically held. No company in this nations history has survived intact. IBM, Ford, GM MS all subject to take overs, mergers, BKs. its just a matter of time. on the other hand. how is the PC market at risk? they are not, because no one has the "market" for the PC. its more about econmics than anything, Mac made a great move to utilize the GUI, and blew it by closing the box.
    nerf

    By JabberJaw January 31, 2001, 04:33 AM

    quote:Originally posted by JonSimon:
    I think Macs still make good hobbyist machines. I've upgraded processors, installed hard drives and video cards, and overclocked Macs before. You just have to buy everything put together to start. Granted, things are more limited on the Mac, but the Mac is not nearly as closed-box as a Tivo, and people hack Tivo left and right.
    -Jon

    I'd be very interested in seeing an article describing the overclock of a Power Mac, with before & after benchmarks.

    It would also be quite interesting to see a Sharky's "shootout" between a Power Mac G4, and a commensurately priced PC.

    By Judge_Fire January 31, 2001, 12:35 PM

    quote:Originally posted by nerf:
    in response to the gentle man who wrote about control. Apple controls nothing! how do they control a company like MS who writes software for their machine. they dont!

    Well, perhaps 'control' wasn't the right term to reflect what I'd experienced;

    In part, I was remembering one quote by one person in one company, that rang true; Dan Vivoli, VP of marketing at nVidia once stated "we can't build a product for Dell without dealing with Intel and Microsoft. But Apple is different. Since it manages the whole Mac production process, Nvidia only needs to meet with one company to deliver a Mac product."

    That ,and my last weeks effort of trying to get one of our HPs with Nvidia cards to work with the built-in game port with a force-feedback joystick (hasn't quite happened yet... one of them always breaks) is the kind of an adventure I've never encountered on a Mac yet. So guess I'll do X-plane on my PowerBook for now.

    As always, my subjective opinion is based on my subjective experience - in my case, perhaps thanks to homogenity, my ride on the mac has been smoother.

    And I'm happy with that. Niche player or not - I'm not into this market or world domination thing.

    Judge_Fire

    ps. As for the first poster suspicions, count me honest - just been lurking around without registering

    By Work Smarter January 31, 2001, 09:31 PM

    "O ignoramis."

    Don't you mean "ignoramus?" Spelling, punctuation and grammar are all useful tools for communication!
    http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html

    By Ori January 31, 2001, 09:44 PM

    It seems that the one most concerned with the "Mac mystic" is you. It is also quite amusing to see how you attribute ignorance to Mac users where this is the main attribute of your post.
    I doubt if there is a Mac user excited with iTunes and MP3 ripping more than a PC user, if only for the fact that those are offered by at least twenty different products. Try to read the press releases carefull and you might find some more interesting stuff (DVD RAM and DVD editing, for example).

    quote:Originally posted by gillyweed:
    Apple is in catchup mode nowadays with the PC in every area with the exception of case design and human interface.
    Apple has a very loyal following that doesn't pay much attention to what's really going on technologically IMHO. They are more concerned with the Mac mystic and asthetics. For example, Mac loyalists think that iTunes and MP3 ripping is something that PC owners would die for. Unfortunately, they don't know PC users have been doing it for years already, which is why they continue to buy Macs.

    I'd buy a Mac (and some love beads) myself, if I couldn't build 4 higher performance PCs for the price of one Mac.

    Boring

    Ba Bye.

    By frinkster January 31, 2001, 11:50 PM

    Good article, although from the link I clicked on to get to the article I was expecting more history than current stuff.

    From reading some of the other posts, I sense some dislike of the Mac platform and some misunderstanding of Apple's idea of computing. First, it's not about being the fastest. It's about being the most productive. A lot of research has been done leading to the design of the Mac user-interface. For example, on the Mac, there is one menu, at the top of the screen as opposed to Windows, where a menu is attached to the top of each app. The Mac version has the advantage of it's menu having infinite height. It is quicker to select a menu item from a Mac menu than from a Windows menu. You will not notice this difference, but if someone watches you work and times you, they will see a difference. These are the types of things that make the processor speed less important.
    Last year, I bought my first computer. I have been using them forever (a Sinclair being the first - that was a long time ago) and was a Windows user. I have a propensity for crashing Windows (can't figure out why, but it happens to me more often than it does to others), so I decided to go ahead and try a Mac (G4 400 MHz). Yes, it was more expensive. At work, I use an 800 MHz Pentium 3 running 98 and I don't notice any difference in speed for most anything. Yes, the P3 is faster (most likely) but it doesn't show because I don't play Quake. Most of the time the computer is idle, save for processing my keystrokes and occasionally compiling my project. I don't do too much compiling at home so I can't really compare them at that, but for everything else they work the same. I crash my Mac every so often, and I crash Windows every so often. They both work. One is much more stylish, the other is ugly and noisier. The convenience of my Macs case alone was worth $50 - 100 dollars of the premium I paid. The integrated ethernet and audio is the best integrated ethernet and audio you'll find in a computer and saves room for expansion (again, worth a few bucks of the premium). Anyway, I kind of lost track of what I was getting at, so I'll stop.

    By scozzaj February 01, 2001, 12:19 PM

    Nice to see Apple get credit where credit is due... nerf and his ilk aside. Apple could create machines that spit out pure gold and these whining Wintel weenies would still bitch and complain ("The gold weighs too much..." "I have to have it assessed, cash it in and actually leave my computer" "It's only 99.999999% pure... what crap" etc.) ;-)

    It would also help if they could read before going off on their anti-Apple rants.

    Some less obvious things Apple has introduced to ease computing...

    - consistency in applications (same keyboard shortcuts from app to app). Before the Mac, you had to learn each apps keyboard quirks (and/or use keyboard templates). Apple interface guidelines locked programmers into being consistent... lifted of course in Windows. Learn one app... you practically know them all (other than app specific functions of course).

    - true plug & play and built-in networking from day one.

    - Applescript... a boon to those who can utilize it day-to-day.

    - introduction of iMovie for easy-to-use (novice) video creation (quickly copied in WindowsME). iTunes has been dissed (wouldn't expect anything else) but it follows the same intelligent, easy-to-use design (and yes, Macs have also had mp3 apps previously and users know about other technological wonders). iDVD again follows iMovie (free) but for DVD creation at an affordable price (Mac hardware) and at a 2x, rather than 10x or more, creation rate (you can bet Bill had his minions hard at work copying this for Whistler before the seats were even cold at MacWorld... maybe that's why Whistler was recently pulled... that plus maybe add OSX features/looks?) Final Cut Pro for professional digital video (iMovie, free, for home use) and DVD Pro for DVD creation (iDVD, free, for home use)… all with the typical Mac elegance and ease-of-use.

    - an intangible... (NERF,ETC., PLEASE READ) GENERALLY Macs are easier to set up, maintain and troubleshoot. No dll hell, etc. I'm always amazed at pro Wintel users having to completely trash and rebuild a hard drive to solve various problems, a widely accepted practice. All TOC /TCO studies I've ever seen give the Mac a clear edge over Wintel re productivity and support costs. I've used a half-dozen Macs since '85 (original, SE, IIcx, 7100/av, 9600 and now a G4) and the only "repair" was to a sticky eject mechanism on a 3.5" floppy drive in the IIcx. Generally, they're well built and reliable. I've only rebuilt my drive once after a 3rd party disk drive upgrade went south and trashed the drive... otherwise it's simply run utilities for preventative maintenance and system upgrades as needed. Tech people love Wintel… great high-priced job security.

    Basically, the Mac interface hasn't changed much over 15 years. IMO, it was pretty good to begin with and has only improved. After all, it's Windows that has emulated more and more of the Mac than the other way around. (Aside… Apple lost the court case because Gates had slipped a line into his agreement with Apple allowing MS future use of certain aspects of the MacOS… much like he played word games with the DOJ agreement and tying apps to the OS. Bill sneaky and untrustworthy?… naaah… must be my imagination.)

    That's not to say Apple and the Mac are perfect but IMO, OSX will only make the Mac better than it already is (Unix benefits and beauty all in one package).

    As for the "No one ever went broke…." bit, that has always been a line associated with the 90% sucked into Microsoft's marketing and Windows use ;-)

    By nerf February 01, 2001, 12:50 PM

    well gee,
    i dont "hate" macs or the people that use them. you are entitled to use/buy what ever you want. but i do get a little frustrated when people try to misrepresent PC/Mac evolution. take credit where it is due but no more and illustrate the facts accurately. Does CA try to(no not California)take credit for windows, they wrote CPM and that is who Bill Gates licensed DOS from. No one company can lay claim to the development of the PC or Mac. As new technologies come to market the ones that are deemed value added make their way into the box. Is IBM given sole credit for the PC, no. I would suggest that product innovation is driven by demand. The PC base around the world is a 100 fold the times of Macs. so who do you think really inspires innovation?
    nerf

    By Judge_Fire February 01, 2001, 02:38 PM

    quote:Originally posted by nerf:
    I would suggest that product innovation is driven by demand. The PC base around the world is a 100 fold the times of Macs. so who do you think really inspires innovation?
    nerf

    Maybe so, but how do you define demand in the context of research? The story points towards Xerox PARC, which, while part of a major company, wasn't exactly in an Microsoft 2001 kind of position.

    Lots of the core things about the Mac, still poorly utilized in Windows, stem from cognitive psychology research, not in any way directly market driven. (As the example of 'Infinite height; Fitts law at work).

    Who were cheering Linus when he was tweaking his first kernel here in a Helsinki basement?

    Demand could, in this light, also be defined as a person's, groups or even companys ambition to excel exactly because they're the underdog - either an unknown student with ambitions, or a company hungry for marketshare.

    Microsoft needs to maintain it's market leadership, of course, by pushing ahead fast. But, in part because of it's market position, the methods it seeks to employ can be very different, as unearthed in the recent trials.

    Judge_Fire

    By Seth Claus February 02, 2001, 01:43 AM

    Mmm, tasty, another UBB board.

    Anyways, it's something of a coincidence that I'm writing this....my brother told me about Sharky Extreme a long time ago...I bookmarked it for some odd reason (I'm a Mac user), and happened to check it today. I read through the Mac article, and was going to post, thanking the staff for including a Mac article. It's hard coming in on threads late, so I have no doubt I'll miss some things, but here goes...

    A fellow at the very beginning said Macs use lousy hardware in an attempt to lower their price....I disagree with this. I find the hardware to be very high quality, and I know that it stands the test of time. (I have an old Mac SE with a monochrome monitor about 9" big that I could boot up and play Dungeon on any day I wanted to)

    I think that as far as the Mac OS goes, it sorely needed an upgrade technology wise. I'm on OS 9.0.4 right now (I haven't gotten around to upgrading to 9.1), and it has a really clean, neat feel to it that Windows never seems to have. I should note that I haven't used Win2k (is ME the same thing?). I think OS X will address the problem of a fading OS, and the only I problems I see with it is the lack of backwards compatibility with old Mac apps (without running in Classic, a built in emulator), and the new interface might take some getting used to. I personally don't have a problem with Apple making a clean break with old Mac apps....this means they don't have to compromise on future ones.

    As to the speed thing: My brother runs a P3 500 as his main computer. It has the same hardware specs (some better, none worse) than my G3 400, but I can tell you for an absolute fact that my iMac DV (lime, of course ) is much faster than his computer.

    Umm...the chances that I'll forget about this are fairly large. Come to Ambrosia's Webboards if you want to find me. I'm known as theGlueBubble there.

    BTW, Sharkey Staff, you might want to look at the way Andrew Welch has his UBB laid out. For example, the reply box I am typing in now seems restrictively small.

    One more thing....Macs are awesome because we can play Escape Velocity on them.

    By Seth Claus February 02, 2001, 01:46 AM

    A couple other things:

    nerf....c'mon man, use capitals where they are supposed to be!

    It would be nice to be able to post without registering.

    By Neo8777 February 02, 2001, 03:52 AM

    The discussion of this article has been milked to no end. Have you guys nothing better to do than look up US patents, compare specs and try to prove someone wrong? MACs are MACs and PCs are PCs.

    By Duo February 02, 2001, 01:08 PM

    quote:Originally posted by Seth Claus:
    One more thing....Macs are awesome because we can play Escape Velocity on them.

    I love that game. Macs rule.

    Duo

    By nerf February 02, 2001, 04:37 PM

    Xerox, when 1st developing a GUI was in uncharted waters. The need for a PC was evident at the time. Proof is from their current numbers. “Necessity is the mother of all invention”. My original response was to point out that Mac's are NOT ground breaking, rather proprietary use of existing technologies. Macs have fallen behind the curve of late and for an "innovator" this seems paradoxical. Macs users point to the stability of the OS. Read a few articles about Win2K. The Anti Trust lawsuits won against MS, were done at you Joe Publics expense. The DOJ hired David Bois to try MS. The DOJ is nothing but lawyers why did they feel the need to hire an outside party. Now that GWB is President, do you think it will die in the courts, you bet. Again, Macs are great machines. They offer users a stable OS and seem to have an edge in media. But when the author of an article mis-represents facts and makes claims that are completely inaccurate, I for one find this offensive. Just tell it like it is. If you own a Mac great! Does it matter that Apple has engaged in the same draconian methods as MS, no. Just face up to it.
    nerf


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