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  • SharkyForums.Com - Print: P4 worth it now?

    P4 worth it now?
    By KeithB March 07, 2001, 04:10 PM

    Hi,

    I'm thinking of building a P4 1.5 gig, using Intel's D850GB mobo. 256meg RAM. My case has the extra 4 holes for the HFS support and i have a P4 ready Fortron 400 watt PS.

    1. Do you guys think the P4 is worth it now? it has come down a good bit.

    2. you guys that have P4s tell me what you think, and what your specs and bench makrks are.

    3. I hear i won't be able to use my VooDoo 5 as the AGP volltage is differnet?

    Thanks , i'm sort of waiting on the CPU and RDRAM prices to fall a bit more.

    Keith

    By The WhiteRabbit March 07, 2001, 04:55 PM

    I'd say at least wait for the new socket that will support Northwood, if not for Northwood itself.

    By iamsostupid March 07, 2001, 04:58 PM

    quote:Originally posted by The WhiteRabbit:
    I'd say at least wait for the new socket that will support Northwood, if not for Northwood itself.

    not only that, but for pete's sake DO NOT BUY AN INTEL MOTHERBOARD

    buying the celeron is bad enough, but that intel i810 mobo they have is just the epitome of disgust. even though thats OT to Pentium 4, its true. Wait for northwood, you will thank us and yourself

    By Arcadian March 07, 2001, 05:17 PM

    If you really want a Pentium 4 now, get the 1.4GHz or 1.3GHz versions, and overclock them using the Asus P4T motherboard. If you can wait for Summer time, though, get the socket-478 Pentium 4, which will have a better upgrade path. The current socket-423 will only go to 2.0GHz, but the newer socket-478 will go to at least the end of the Northwood core (3.0+GHz). Besides, by Summer time, Intel will have 1.7GHz or higher out, and the 1.5GHz Pentium 4 will probably cost less than the 1.4GHz core costs now.

    By iamsostupid March 07, 2001, 05:20 PM

    its not that northwood has a better upgrade path than willamette, but that it has one at all! Intel will stop making willamette at 2GHz, which is the OCing threshold anyway, so theres no point

    By Arcadian March 07, 2001, 05:22 PM

    quote:Originally posted by iamsostupid:
    its not that northwood has a better upgrade path than willamette, but that it has one at all! Intel will stop making willamette at 2GHz, which is the OCing threshold anyway, so theres no point

    I wasn't speaking exclusively Northwood. In fact, I would recommend Willamette on socket-478 as well as Northwood. The only thing I wouldn't recommend is Willamette on socket-423.

    By Tigerman March 07, 2001, 05:23 PM

    I have a P4 1.3 and am super pleased. Here is a link of some screens http://community.webshots.com/user/chumpmaster

    I got it to 1.74 with no problems. But I would urge you not to get the intel MB, I have the Asus P4T and think it's great.

    Most will say the P4 sucks and the Thunderbird blows it away, but I say wait for optimization and the like, then we'll see. if your set on Intel, go for it, otherwise look into a new 1.2/266 Thunderbird. I hear those are real nice too.


    quote:Originally posted by KeithB:
    Hi,

    I'm thinking of building a P4 1.5 gig, using Intel's D850GB mobo. 256meg RAM. My case has the extra 4 holes for the HFS support and i have a P4 ready Fortron 400 watt PS.

    1. Do you guys think the P4 is worth it now? it has come down a good bit.

    2. you guys that have P4s tell me what you think, and what your specs and bench makrks are.

    3. I hear i won't be able to use my VooDoo 5 as the AGP volltage is differnet?

    Thanks , i'm sort of waiting on the CPU and RDRAM prices to fall a bit more.

    Keith

    By draconus March 07, 2001, 05:25 PM

    wait

    By Ulrick28 March 07, 2001, 05:40 PM

    I have a p4 1.4 and overclocked it to 1.56. I am super pleased as well. The athlons work great as well. However, for games, the extra memory bandwidth makes a HUGE difference. (and yes I have an athlon rig as well).

    Yes, you will NOT be able to use your voodoo card. The P4 only uses 1.5 volt AGP whereas the voodoo 3 and 5 are the only cards that use 3.3 volt. Plus with 3dfx going the way of the dodo bird, it might be wise to invest in a different vid card.

    I agree, get the Asus p4t motherboard. It's a great motherboard. I have also heard reports that if you have more than 3 PCI cards plugged in you run into some system performance issues. However, I have not had this verified so it could just be a rumor.

    P4 1.4 Oc'd to 1.56
    256 mb RDRAM
    Asus p4t motherboard
    Promise FastTrak 100 with 2 30 gig IBM deskstar drives using raid 0
    16x Philips DVD
    geForce 2 ultra
    19" Sony G400
    Creative SB Live

    And yes, I am a happy camper with it

    By Arcadian March 07, 2001, 05:51 PM

    quote:Originally posted by Ulrick28:
    I have also heard reports that if you have more than 3 PCI cards plugged in you run into some system performance issues. However, I have not had this verified so it could just be a rumor.

    The initial Pentium 4 systems had a problem if you were running PCI video cards (common for multi-monitor support). The problem caused some stability problems if you had a lot of PCI traffic (3+ PCI cards, for example, in addition to the video card). This was a bug in the ICH2, but only when paired with the i850. What happened was that the ICH2 did not invalidate certain read requests sent from the i850 when it was prefetching data. The work around involved turning off prefetching if you are running video from a PCI device. This slowed down performance, but it guarenteed stability. The next stepping of the ICH2 (I don't know when this will be, or if it has already happened) will contain the fix. Hope that clears some stuff up.

    By Tigerman March 07, 2001, 06:24 PM

    I'm surprised you could only get it to 1.56. Have you tried using the dip switches? I could only get my 1.3 to 1.53 when I used the BIOS feature, but once I went to dip switches...oh yeah. You should post some shots from SciSoft and WCPUID.


    quote:Originally posted by Ulrick28:
    I have a p4 1.4 and overclocked it to 1.56. I am super pleased as well. The athlons work great as well. However, for games, the extra memory bandwidth makes a HUGE difference. (and yes I have an athlon rig as well).

    Yes, you will NOT be able to use your voodoo card. The P4 only uses 1.5 volt AGP whereas the voodoo 3 and 5 are the only cards that use 3.3 volt. Plus with 3dfx going the way of the dodo bird, it might be wise to invest in a different vid card.

    I agree, get the Asus p4t motherboard. It's a great motherboard. I have also heard reports that if you have more than 3 PCI cards plugged in you run into some system performance issues. However, I have not had this verified so it could just be a rumor.

    P4 1.4 Oc'd to 1.56
    256 mb RDRAM
    Asus p4t motherboard
    Promise FastTrak 100 with 2 30 gig IBM deskstar drives using raid 0
    16x Philips DVD
    geForce 2 ultra
    19" Sony G400
    Creative SB Live

    And yes, I am a happy camper with it

    By Ulrick28 March 07, 2001, 06:43 PM

    The problem is that the FastTrak 100 is very sensive to bus speed. I did try playing with the dip switches in order to oc higher but it wouldn't even post. The thing Blazes as it is and I got a 1.5 (and a bit better) out of a 1.4 so I am ok for now

    In a few weeks I will probably try again. I am too busy using it right now to tinker anymore. I will have to run some other benchmarks besides 3dmark2k. I did get 11k out of 3dmark2k though (and that is running ALL tests at 640 x 480).

    Your multiplyer is set at 13, mine is at 14. You will probably have better luck OC'ing than I would since yours maxes at 1729 at 133mhz and mine maxes at 1862 at 133mhz. Maybe I just got a less OC'able P4.

    By Ulrick28 March 07, 2001, 06:47 PM

    Oh..

    I was aiming at keeping my PCI clock as close to norm as possible with the bus speed at 133mhz. I didn't see any dip switches that would let you control core voltage or rambus multiplier.

    By Newbie-Overclocker March 07, 2001, 07:49 PM

    quote:Originally posted by iamsostupid:
    its not that northwood has a better upgrade path than willamette, but that it has one at all! Intel will stop making willamette at 2GHz, which is the OCing threshold anyway, so theres no point

    Whats this no upgrade bull??? The Asus P4t starts at 1.3ghz and is going to 2.0 the Abit Kt7a starts at 1ghz and is going to 1.7 with the palaimo u dont realy think the K8 will be released to work on current motherbords do u?

    INTEL has bin great over the years Socket7 then 370/slotone witch are the same thing since u can have slot1 cpus on 370 and 370 cpus on slot 1 with an adaptor and now the new P4 socket thats 4 BTW some motherbords slot1 supported socket7 chips via an adaptor.

    thats 3 slots

    AMD socket7 then slot 2 witch is dead now thx AMD for that great upgrade path and now there socket and now we need a new mother bord for there new FSB.

    Thats 4.

    I think it was cool that AMD let every1 go from 90mhz-550mhz via the K6-2 550 on the socket7 but I think it was more cool of INTEL to let us go from 266mhz first PII/celerons to 1ghz.

    AMD holds the title for worst upgradepath and always will the only other upgrade path that will kinda suck is the new P3s on .13micron

    By KeithB March 07, 2001, 08:32 PM

    Agreeded , lets face it, by the time we are ready for a CPU upgrade, we want the latest mobo archtcture and improvements too.

    And thanks everyonre for your replies and info

    Keith


    quote:Originally posted by Newbie-Overclocker:
    Whats this no upgrade bull??? The Asus P4t starts at 1.3ghz and is going to 2.0 the Abit Kt7a starts at 1ghz and is going to 1.7 with the palaimo u dont realy think the K8 will be released to work on current motherbords do u?

    INTEL has bin great over the years Socket7 then 370/slotone witch are the same thing since u can have slot1 cpus on 370 and 370 cpus on slot 1 with an adaptor and now the new P4 socket thats 4 BTW some motherbords slot1 supported socket7 chips via an adaptor.

    thats 3 slots

    AMD socket7 then slot 2 witch is dead now thx AMD for that great upgrade path and now there socket and now we need a new mother bord for there new FSB.

    Thats 4.

    I think it was cool that AMD let every1 go from 90mhz-550mhz via the K6-2 550 on the socket7 but I think it was more cool of INTEL to let us go from 266mhz first PII/celerons to 1ghz.

    AMD holds the title for worst upgradepath and always will the only other upgrade path that will kinda suck is the new P3s on .13micron

    By Tigerman March 07, 2001, 11:10 PM

    Yeah, dip switches will control the FSB, PCI and AGP clocks, you'll have to use the BIOS for the voltage and memory multiplyer. pg 58 of the P4T manual. I have my voltage maxed at 1.85 and rambus at 3x. Understand about the time though, I have a midterm and stats homework due manana.


    quote:Originally posted by Ulrick28:
    Oh..

    I was aiming at keeping my PCI clock as close to norm as possible with the bus speed at 133mhz. I didn't see any dip switches that would let you control core voltage or rambus multiplier.

    By iamsostupid March 07, 2001, 11:18 PM

    quote:Originally posted by Newbie-Overclocker:
    Whats this no upgrade bull??? The Asus P4t starts at 1.3ghz and is going to 2.0 the Abit Kt7a starts at 1ghz and is going to 1.7 with the palaimo u dont realy think the K8 will be released to work on current motherbords do u?

    INTEL has bin great over the years Socket7 then 370/slotone witch are the same thing since u can have slot1 cpus on 370 and 370 cpus on slot 1 with an adaptor and now the new P4 socket thats 4 BTW some motherbords slot1 supported socket7 chips via an adaptor.

    thats 3 slots

    AMD socket7 then slot 2 witch is dead now thx AMD for that great upgrade path and now there socket and now we need a new mother bord for there new FSB.

    Thats 4.

    I think it was cool that AMD let every1 go from 90mhz-550mhz via the K6-2 550 on the socket7 but I think it was more cool of INTEL to let us go from 266mhz first PII/celerons to 1ghz.

    AMD holds the title for worst upgradepath and always will the only other upgrade path that will kinda suck is the new P3s on .13micron


    you make dangerous assumptions NewB. I did not mention AMD anywhere in my post. My point was, you can easily OC a Pentium 4 1.5 to 2GHz with proper cooling, skill, and a substantial amount of luck. Since Socket423 will only be taken to 2GHz, why go by a 2GHz if any willamette with a lower clock can easily acheive it? That's what I'm saying. Never, anywhere, have I said AMD has the best upgrade path. If anyone does, it is Cyrix. While the lack of performance of their CPUs makes up for their insanely low price/maintainance, they have the best x86 CPU upgrade path possible. Also, you've got to ask AMD and Intel one question:

    "Do you care?"

    No they do not. They don't care whether or not you will have to buy a new motherboard, which is why CuMine-T will require a new mobo, even though they may not make an FSB adjustment. This is also why they will make Northwood and Foster on different sockets (not 100% sure onthe foster bit). And for the record NewB, the slot interface for Athlon Classics is known as Slot-A, not Slot-2. Slot-2 is for Intel's 'Xeon' series of processors. Also, the Pentium II was released at 233MHz; not 266Mhz. They are easily confused, however, because the Pentium MMX ended at 233. Also, stop me if I'm wrong, but didnt the Celemines need a different socket in comparison to the mendocinos? AMD has their low, medium, and high performance lines CURRENTLY on one socket. Socket A (when coupled to KT133A, AMD760, or Magik1) supports Duron, AthlonB, AthlonC, Palomino, and Morgan. Intel has never supported so many different CPU designs with one standard interface.

    By Newbie-Overclocker March 08, 2001, 02:24 AM

    quote:Originally posted by iamsostupid:

    you make dangerous assumptions NewB. I did not mention AMD anywhere in my post. My point was, you can easily OC a Pentium 4 1.5 to 2GHz with proper cooling, skill, and a substantial amount of luck. Since Socket423 will only be taken to 2GHz, why go by a 2GHz if any willamette with a lower clock can easily acheive it? That's what I'm saying. Never, anywhere, have I said AMD has the best upgrade path. If anyone does, it is Cyrix. While the lack of performance of their CPUs makes up for their insanely low price/maintainance, they have the best x86 CPU upgrade path possible. Also, you've got to ask AMD and Intel one question:

    "Do you care?"

    No they do not. They don't care whether or not you will have to buy a new motherboard, which is why CuMine-T will require a new mobo, even though they may not make an FSB adjustment. This is also why they will make Northwood and Foster on different sockets (not 100% sure onthe foster bit). And for the record NewB, the slot interface for Athlon Classics is known as Slot-A, not Slot-2. Slot-2 is for Intel's 'Xeon' series of processors. Also, the Pentium II was released at 233MHz; not 266Mhz. They are easily confused, however, because the Pentium MMX ended at 233. Also, stop me if I'm wrong, but didnt the Celemines need a different socket in comparison to the mendocinos? AMD has their low, medium, and high performance lines CURRENTLY on one socket. Socket A (when coupled to KT133A, AMD760, or Magik1) supports Duron, AthlonB, AthlonC, Palomino, and Morgan. Intel has never supported so many different CPU designs with one standard interface.

    Ok 1 question if most P4s can hit 2.0ghz then why would u tell some1 to buy AMD?? a 2.0ghz P4 is about the speed of a 1.7/1.8ghz Tbird and since Tbirds MAX out at 1.3/1.4 why would u tell any1 to get a Tbird?

    As ive shown u can get a 1.3ghz P4 with 256megs of ram and a MSI bord for 40$ more then a 1.2ghz tbird DDR system.

    With air cooling on a p4 1.3, 1.6/1.7 is easy so that makes the P4 1.3 alot better choice then a Tbird.

    By BRB March 08, 2001, 08:33 AM

    quote:Originally posted by KeithB:
    Hi,

    I'm thinking of building a P4 1.5 gig, using Intel's D850GB mobo. 256meg RAM. My case has the extra 4 holes for the HFS support and i have a P4 ready Fortron 400 watt PS.

    1. Do you guys think the P4 is worth it now? it has come down a good bit.

    2. you guys that have P4s tell me what you think, and what your specs and bench makrks are.

    3. I hear i won't be able to use my VooDoo 5 as the AGP volltage is differnet?

    Thanks , i'm sort of waiting on the CPU and RDRAM prices to fall a bit more.

    Keith

    I know several people have probably already said this but now is not the time to go PIV. Intel is on the verge of releasing a totally new socket style with a radical redesign of the chip itself.

    By KeithB March 08, 2001, 09:00 AM

    Thaanks , I'm waiting and watching with interest. I 1 gig T-bird on Asus A7V will keep me for now.

    Keith


    quote:Originally posted by BRB:
    I know several people have probably already said this but now is not the time to go PIV. Intel is on the verge of releasing a totally new socket style with a radical redesign of the chip itself.

    By iamsostupid March 08, 2001, 09:07 PM

    quote:Originally posted by Newbie-Overclocker:
    Ok 1 question if most P4s can hit 2.0ghz then why would u tell some1 to buy AMD?? a 2.0ghz P4 is about the speed of a 1.7/1.8ghz Tbird and since Tbirds MAX out at 1.3/1.4 why would u tell any1 to get a Tbird?

    As ive shown u can get a 1.3ghz P4 with 256megs of ram and a MSI bord for 40$ more then a 1.2ghz tbird DDR system.

    With air cooling on a p4 1.3, 1.6/1.7 is easy so that makes the P4 1.3 alot better choice then a Tbird.


    The current Socket423 willamette is pointing nowhere. I will have a different attitude toward Willamette, and Intel as a whole when Socket-478 is out. But as of yet, the price, grief, and upgradability of the current willamette is not worth a $750 1.5GHz (that performs like a 1.3), and a $200 +/- motherboard, which will only be replaced in 6 months. For me this is ok. I can afford it and upgrade every month anyway. But Palomino will perform equally or better than Willamette (because the K7 core gets more work done per clock than NetBurst), despite the difference in frequency. There's nothing wrong with Willamette as a processor, but even for people like me, who generally do have money to throw away, it is much more convenient to take the Socket-A route. Right now, yes, Thunderbird is the better buy. Thunderbird is set to compete with the 1.3-1.6GHz Pentium 4's, and then Palomino comes in, to carry the flag to 1.7GHz (even though it will do well against a 2GHz P4). Yes, the Thunderbird is the better buy currently, which is why I am taking it. It leaves more cash for me to spend on Video and Audio solutions for my computer. Also, with that 1.3GHz $40 more than a TBird. For one thing, thats a canada-only deal, which does not apply to more than 10% of the people on the forums. Second, you mentioned the OC potential of P4, but completely left out AMD's! Since a 1.3P4 can scale without much effort to 1.6 or so, a 1.2 can get to about 1.4-1.45, which evens out the performance difference again. Overall, TBird vs Willamette is a clear win for Intel, but only performance wise. In scalability, upgradability, overclockability, and efficiency, and yes, even stability, AMD is at least equal to Intel in all of those fields. Believe what you want, but I dont think I could be more honest with you right there.

    The fact remains, you will be happy you skipped Socket 423 for Socket 478,
    because good things happen to those who wait.
    But still, right now, AMD's the way to go,
    Because in a few months we'll have Palomino.
    It's pretty cool, and it'll do you good,
    But youd better save your pennies for upcoming northwood!

    That rhymed. I am a sensitive poet.


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